Sunday, September 27, 2009
The Question
I have a lot to say on the matter of Social Justice, but you seem to be itching to tell me your understanding of Social Justice! So, what is it?
Dad
Thursday, September 24, 2009
My Understanding of Social Justice
I am glad to know we agree that there are more reasons for poverty than that poor people just don’t want to work. Most of your comments since we started this discussion have stressed the idea that it does not help the poor, or anyone for that matter, to forcibly take money away from hard-working people in order to give something to people who haven’t worked for it. One of your main points, if not the main point, is that when honest, hard-working people build wealth only to have it taken away from them by the government in order to provide goods or services for people who have not worked hard to earn those things, then everyone loses. I understand this. I take seriously the passages you quoted from 2 Thess 3:10 and 1 Tim 5:8. But those two passages are not all the Bible has to say about economic justice.
I agree that if someone is poor because they choose not to work or because of other unrepented sin, they don’t need handouts, they need admonition and accountability. If someone is poor because of someone else’s sin or some catastrophic event, then they need compassion. If someone is poor because of flaws in the economic, political or social system, then what they need is justice.
I know that many people think of the word ‘justice’ only in terms of the definition “the administering of deserved punishment or reward.” That’s not what I’m talking about. What I mean is “conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude.” And I’m not talking about it only in terms of the actions or attitudes of individual people, but of entire systems. Sometimes the same flaws in the system that make it impossible for the poor to get out of poverty give the wealthy an advantage to gain more wealth. This is not right. This is not how God intends for His people to live. When I talk about social justice I am not talking about punishing any one. I am talking about taking an honest look at the flaws in our system that help the rich get richer at the expense of the poor and trying to conform that system to a closer idea of how God intends His people to live. The Bible has a lot to say about that, and I hope our discussion gets us into some of those passages. I’m not claiming I have the answers, or that I know exactly how to apply these passages. Finding those answers seems extremely complicated to me, but it also seems extremely important, so I want to wrestle with it and figure out what I can do.
Do you agree that there are flaws in our system that make it very difficult, if not impossible, for some poor people to get out of poverty? Do you understand what I mean by social justice? Do you think this is something Christians should be wrestling with?
Wednesday, September 23, 2009
Social Justice
You made a leap of logic to assume I believe "all (or most)" poor people are that way because they don't want to work. In order to do that, you have to paint the apostle Paul with the same brush. I don't think that way, and I don't interpret his remarks that way either. However, why would the apostle insert those sentences in his letters if there weren't expectations of a free lunch among at least some of the faithful? I know, it's a hard thing, and you won't hear a sermon on it in 21st century America, given the entitlement and politically correct atmosphere we live in.
You have described well in your third paragraph how many of the poor have gotten that way, and I agree. I'd like to focus on your sentence, "And some are poor because of injustices in our economic, political or social systems." That is the mantra of the Social Justice crowd such as John Rawls, the Green Party, and others. They do not like capitalism, don't like communism, but don't rule out redistribution of wealth in between. Does that describe you, or are you somewhere else?
Love,
Dad
Tuesday, September 22, 2009
Reasons for Poverty
You said that this blog has helped you learn a bit about me, but much of it you already knew. I’m afraid I don’t agree. I don’t think you’ve understood what I’ve been trying to say, perhaps because I haven’t been doing a good job of clearly communicating my beliefs.
Many of your comments and the two passages you quoted in your last post lead me to believe that you think that all (or most?) poor people in this country are poor because they don’t want to work. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted your comments.
What I have been trying to point out is that, while idleness certainly is the reason why some people in this country are poor, that is not the case for many, many other people. Some people are poor because of bad decisions they made in the past, some because someone sinned against them, some because catastrophic circumstances have left them without the basic needs for survival. And some are poor because of injustices in our economic, political or social systems. Most likely it is a combination of several of those reasons. Do you agree with this? I really want to continue this conversation, but I don’t know if we can go much further until I understand your beliefs on the reasons for poverty in America.
Mindy
Monday, September 21, 2009
Justice
Goodness but it's been (too) long since I've had time to spend on the blog, but that doesn't mean I haven't been thinking about the issues. I do have to confess I am not optimistic about the direction of the blog. My original thoughts about this to myself have come true, i.e., we both are what we are. At least I know a bit more about you, but most of it I already knew. As such, it seems best to just address the issue foremost in your mind, that being justice. This is as applied to the Health Care debate, which is where it came up. Using the Bible as our source, the following exhortations come to mind:
"If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat."
"If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse that an unbeliever."
That is the bible's version of economic justice, not mine. These are a long way from "who pays for the health care of my family?" The bible of course, in the nearly 200 verses about the poor, exhorts us to not persecute not vex the poor, to be advocates for them and to help them. Nowhere does it suggest we pay his bills for him. It also speaks loudly about how we are to have compassion on the less fortunate. Doing that is the Lord's command. He does not suggest the State conficated your wealth to do it on your behalf. That would gut the opportunity for us to do it out of a heart of compassion.
As you have self described yourself as being in the information gathering stage, why not read a little Karl Marx, or Dostoyevski's "Grand Inquisitor", or a little de Toqueville, or Frederick Bastiat, or Plato's Republic. Maybe you have done this already. If not, it can add to the opinions of NPR and Twitter, and rest on some of the wisdom of those who have been there and seen it. As you may have heard, Irving Kristol passed away Friday 09/18. He was known as the "Godfather of Neoconservatism." Jewish, of course, but nowhere have I read that he became a follower of Jesus. Nevertheless, he made the intellectual circuit in his life from athiest to Trotskyist to Socialist to moderate to conservative, and many believe set the intellectual table for the Reagan presidency. I am always awed by the pragmatism of Jews. Here is a comment that would be pertinent to our debate. "It's not enough just to have a sense of what's right and what's wrong, you also have to have a sense of how the world works."
God Bless You,
Dad
Mindy's Response to We the People Are Coming
For one thing, I’m not sure about the truth of some of her claims. I will point out just two of them, the ones about ACORN. The letter’s author claims that ACORN will be “in charge of our 2010 census” and that “mandatory escrow fees” are contributed to them “every time on every real estate deal that closes.” I don’t know where that second accusation comes from, but here are two links to FactCheck.org that refute the first one, and possibly the second one. If you have evidence that supports those claims, please send them on. My point here, however, is not to get into a discussion about the merits or evils of ACORN—I don’t know much about the organization, except that it has gotten a lot of attention on conservative news programs. My point is simply that a letter with this kind of misinformation in it is not helpful. Even if some of the letter writer’s points have merit, I am prone to distrust what she has to say because the letter includes such clear untruths.
Also, the general tone of the letter is rather presumptuous. She claims to be speaking for “patriotic Americans” and “we, the people”. But
I’m not sure exactly what the author’s intentions were in writing this letter. Her goal, apparently, is to encourage people to vote the current administration and Congress out of office. That is all well and good. But she is trying to do this by implying that she represents all “patriotic” Americans, and by making several accusations against current government policy which may or may not be true. What if, instead, she were to seek out those Americans with whom she disagrees to have an honest and humble conversation? It would be much more helpful to me if this woman, and others like her, would find someone who sees this situation differently and listen to them with a real desire for understanding to find out why they think differently, and then humbly explain their own views. That, of course, is the reason I wanted to start this blog.
So, let’s continue the conversation…
Forwarded Email: We, the People, Are coming
Mindy
*************************************************************************************************
The only point I would add is, "don't take away our right and privilege to worship, pray and praise God." This country was founded on freedoms and freedom of religion is one of those choices! It is in God whom we trust.
~ E
*************************************************************************************************
Subject: We, the People, Are coming!!!
This is a little long but WOW did this lady get the message right! I couldn't have said it better!!
The following letter is rapidly circulating around the country. Americans everywhere identify with this 53-year -old woman. She has given us a voice. (Her letter was read on the Glenn Beck show.) Once you read this, you will want to forward it to all of your friends...
GLENN BECK: I got a letter from a woman in Arizona . She writes an open letter to our nation's leadership:
I'm a home grown American citizen, 53, registered Democrat all my life. Before the last presidential election I registered as a Republican because I no longer felt the Democratic Party represents my views or works to pursue issues important to me. Now I no longer feel the Republican Party represents my views or works to pursue issues important to me. The fact is I no longer feel any political party or representative in Washington represents my views or works to pursue the issues important to me. There must be someone. Please tell me who you are . Please stand up and tell me that you are there and that you're willing to fight for our Constitution as it was written. Please stand up now. You might ask yourself what my views and issues are that I would horribly feel so disenfranchised by both major political parties.. What kind of nut job am I? Will you please tell me?
Well, these are briefly my views and issues for which I seek representation:
One, illegal immigration. I want you to stop coddling illegal immigrants and secure our borders. Close the underground tunnels. Stop the violence and the trafficking in drugs and people. No amnesty, not again. Been there, done that, no resolution. P.S., I'm not a racist. This isn't to be confused with legal immigration.
Two, the TARP bill, I want it repealed and I want no further funding supplied to it. We told you no, but you did it anyway.. I want the remaining unfunded 95% repealed. Freeze, and repealed.
Three: Czars, I want the circumvention of our checks and balances stopped immediately. Fire the czars. No more czars. Government officials answer to the process, not to the president. Stop trampling on our Constitution and honor it.
Four, cap and trade. The debate on global warming is not over. There is more to say, discuss, and investigate.
Five, universal healthcare. I will not be rushed into another expensive decision. Don't you dare try to pass this in the middle of the night and then go on break. Slow down!
Six, growing government control. I want states rights and sovereignty fully restored. I want less government in my life, not more. Shrink it down. Mind your own business. You have enough to take care of with your real obligations. Why don't you start there.
Seven, ACORN. I do not want ACORN and its affiliates in charge of our 2010 census. I want them investigated. I also do not want mandatory escrow fees contributed to them every time on every real estate deal that closes. Stop the funding to ACORN and its affiliates pending impartial audits and investigations. I do not trust them with taking the census over with our taxpayer money. I don't trust them with our taxpayer money. Face up to the allegations against them and get it resolved before taxpayers get any more involved with them. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, hello. Stop protecting you! r political buddies. You work for us, the people.. Investigate.
Eight, redistribution of wealth. No, no, no. I work for my money. It is mine. I have always worked for people with more money than I have because they gave me jobs. That is the only redistribution of wealth that I will support. I never got a job from a poor person. Why do you want me to hate my employers? Why -- what do you have against businesses and shareholders making a profit?
Nine, charitable contributions. Although I never got a job from a poor person, I have helped many in need. Charity belongs in our local communities, where we know our needs best and can use our local talent and our local resources. Butt out, please. We want to do it ourselves.
Ten, corporate bailouts. Knock it off. Sink or swim like the rest of us. If there are hard times ahead, we'll be better off just getting into it and letting the strong survive. Quick and painful. Have you ever ripped off a Band-Aid? We will pull together. Great things happen in America under great hardship. Give us the chance to innovate. We cannot disappoint you more than you have disappointed us.
Eleven, transparency and accountability. How about it? No, really, how about it? Let's have it. Let's say we give the buzzwords a rest and have some straight honest talk. Please try -- please stop manipulating and trying to appease me with clever wording. I am not the idiot you obviously take me for. Stop sneaking around and meeting in back rooms making deals with your friends. It will only be a prelude to your criminal investigation. Stop hiding things from me.
Twelve, unprecedented quick spending.. Stop it now.
Take a breath. Listen to the people. Let's just slow down and get some input from some nonpoliticians on the subject. Stop making everything an emergency. Stop speed reading our bills into law. I am not an activist. I am not a community organizer.. Nor am I a terrorist, a militant or a violent person. I am a parent and a grandparent. I work. I'm busy. I'm busy. I am busy, and I am tired. I thought we elected competent people to take care of the business of government so that we could work, raise our families, pay our bills, have a little recreation, complain about taxes, endure our hardships, pursue our personal goals, cut our lawn, wash our cars on the weekends and be responsible contributing members of society and teach our children to be the same all while living in the home of the free and land of the brave! .
I entrusted you with upholding the Constitution. I believed in the checks and balances to keep from getting far off course. What happened? You are very far off course. Do you really think I find humor in the hiring of a speed reader to unintelligently ramble all through a bill that you signed into law without knowing what it contained? I do not. It is a mockery of the responsibility I have entrusted to you. It is a slap in the face. I am not laughing at your arrogance. Why is it that I feel as if you would not trust me to make a single decision about my own life and how I would live it but you should expect that I should trust you with the debt that you have laid on all of us and our children. We did not want the TARP bill. We said no. We would repeal it if we could. I am sure that we still! cannot. There is such urgency and recklessness in all of the recent spending.
From my perspective, it seems that all of you have gone insane. I also know that I am far from alone in these feelings. Do you honestly feel that your current pursuits have merit to patriotic Americans? We want it to stop. We want to put the brakes on everything that is being rushed by us and forced upon us. We want our voice back. You have forced us to put our lives on hold to straighten out the mess that you are making. We will have to give up our vacations, our time spent with our children, any relaxation time we may have had and money we cannot afford to spend on you, to bring our concerns to Washington . Our president often knows all the right buzzwords like 'unsustainable'. Well, no kidding. How many tens of thousands of dollars did the focus group cost to come up with that word? We don't want your over priced words. Sto! p treating us like we're morons.
We want all of you to stop focusing on your reelection and do the job we want done, not the job you want done or the job your party wants done. You work for us and at this rate I guarantee you not for long because we are coming. We will be heard and we will be represented. You think we're so busy with our lives that we will never come for you? We are the formerly silent majority, all of us who quietly work , pay taxes, obey the law, vote, save money, keep our noses to the grindstone and we are now looking up at you. You have awakened us, the patriotic spirit so strong and so powerful that it had been sleeping too long. You have pushed us too far. Our numbers are great. They may surprise you. For every one of us who will be there, there will be hundreds more that could not come. Unlike you, we have their trust. We will represen! t them honestly, rest assured.. They will be at the polls on voting day to usher you out of office. We have cancelled vacations. We will use our last few dollars saved. We will find the representation among us and a grassroots campaign will flourish. We didn't ask for this fight. But the gloves are coming off. We do not come in violence, but we are angry. You will represent us or you will be replaced with someone who will. There are candidates among us who will rise like a Phoenix from the ashes that you have made of our constitution.
Democrat, Republican, independent, libertarian. Understand this. We don't care. Political parties are meaningless to us. Patriotic Americans are willing to do right by us and our Constitution and that is all that matters to us now. We are going to fire all of you who abuse power and seek more.. It is not your power. It is ours and we want it back.. We entrusted you with it and you abused it. You are dishonorable. You are dishonest. As Americans we are ashamed of you. You have brought shame to us. If you are not representing the wants and needs of your constituency loudly and consistently, in spite of the objections of your party, you will be fired. Did you hear? We no longer care about your political parties. You need to be loyal to us, not to them. Because when we fire you, th! ey will not save you. If you do or can represent me, my issues, my views, please stand up. Make your identity known. You need to make some noise about it. Speak up. I need to know who you are. If you do not speak up, you will be herded out with the rest of the sheep and we will replace the whole damn congress if need be one by one. We are coming. Are we coming for you? Who do you represent? What do you represent? Listen. Because we are coming. We the people are coming, and we vote !!
PLEASE, SEND TO AS MANY FRIENDS, RELATIVES, AND ACQUAINTANCES AS YOU CAN.
OUR VOTE IS VERY, VERY, IMPORTANT - AND IT MUST BE HEARD, LOUD AND CLEAR.